059 - Dealing with Rejection

Rejection is a part of life. Many of us spend every waking moment finding a way to avoid rejection, failure, or negative feelings. As a writer, one of the best assets you can develop is the ability to recognize this process is coming up short and starting again until you finally get there. This week, we take a deep dive into the subject of rejection for writers.Show NotesMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsMichael Jamin:I hear people all the time, like say, oh, it's too hard to break in, as I always say, break in as a pa because if to get the job you want, you wanna get as physically close to the job, to the person who has the job that you want. Whatever that is. Writer, director, producer, whatever. Physically close you're listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear this with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, this is MichaelJamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters Need to Hear This, the podcast where we have screenwriters talking about things we need to hear. And I'm back with Philadelphia, Phil Hudson. Phil, welcome back.Phil Hudson:Thank you. It's good to be back. It'sMichael Jamin:Been good to be back.Phil Hudson:Many weeks of not being here.Michael Jamin:Um, yeah, there's been a lot going on. Lot going on.Phil Hudson:I had a baby.Michael Jamin:Brand new baby too.Phil Hudson:I personally, my wife did nothing. I did it all. Now my wonderful wife, um, we brought a baby boy into the world and we're super happy. And so we've been, he sleeps, which is great. And, um, yeah, dealing with a toddler now. The two year old is now immediately a toddler. Mm-hmm.Michael Jamin:<affirmative>. Wow. How and how, how's she taken him to this new kid?Phil Hudson:Um, it was interesting. She was really hesitant it first that we tried to do cute photos of her holding the baby brother and she just shoved him off immediately. Yeah. She, and wanted nothing. And now she like, will go over and give him kisses and try to give him little nozzles and she, she's, she's, uh, accustomed and loves it. So.Michael Jamin:See, that's nice. Yeah. Well, this brings us right to our topic we're gonna talk about today. It's dealing with rejection, which is what your baby son is now dealing with, with his sister rejection. Yep. And this is something all screenwriters have to deal with, not just aspiring writers, Phil, even people, my level and above. If there is above, is there an above? Yes. Which point?Phil Hudson:I think, I think it's, it's something everyone is dealing with, like rejection is that like dealing with rejection is a skillset everyone needs to develop. I think for riders, we're just putting ourselves out there so much. We're bearing our souls and what we do. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that it feels more raw and vulnerable. And I think vulnerable, very important. We've talked aboutMichael Jamin:That before. Yep. And that's the first point is actually the fact that you are getting rejected means you are putting yourself out there. And so good for you, for good. For anybody who's getting rejected, it means they're trying. And then, which is already light years above people who are not, you know, who are not putting themselves out there. So I'm just gonna share, you know, my experiences of rejection and how I deal with it. And um, and maybe that'll help cuz I, I just want you to know everyone listening, like, I deal with a lot of rejection. This is the business <laugh>, I don't think of personally anymore. So just on a, on a, on a, on a macro scale, you know, when my partners shop a pilot, maybe one at a four they buy, which means, you know, three quarters or just failures. That's just how it goes.So, you know, I don't, I don't even take a pot. I I I don't take it personally. I was like, oh, okay. They didn't buy it. Well hopefully they'll buy the next one. Um, and, and even backing it up a little bit, you know, I hear people all the time, like say, oh, it's too hard to break in, as I always say, break in as a pa because if, to get the job you want, you wanna get as physically close to the job, to the person who has the job that you want, whatever that is. Writer, director, producer, whatever, physically close. This is just what you're doing, Phil. You are literally physically close to these people and a lot of people in that industry. And, um, but people say, well, it's hard just to become a PA and they start Yeah. You have to know someone.It's so hard. It's like, hold on. If you're complaining about how hard it is to be a production assistant, that's what PA stands for for, you can forget about being a writer. Cuz writer is way more hard, way harder than being a pa. I mean, so get that outta your head. Don't complain about how hard it's about being a pa. You know, that's, it's a hurdle you can achieve. It's just hard. So, um, and also another thing people don't even realize, and things have changed a little bit in the past, I don't know, probably 15 or years or so, but up until then, you could make a a, a professional screenwriter could make a really good living writing and getting paid to write screenplays that never ever get on screen. They never get made. And maybe things are a little different now, but it's also, it's not unusual to write something and not have it made. I mean Right. We sold two movies. It's a 20th century Fox. Neither got made. And when they weren't, they didn't get made. I wasn't like, you know, I was like, yeah, I didn't expect it to get made. That's how, this is how the industry works. As long as I get that, that check, you know? Um, yeah.Phil Hudson:I, I was gonna say that reminds me of like my uncle, um, he's just a small town guy, just super, he's not, he's not simple, but he just, he loves his simple life, if you will. And he was telling me that one time he bought this old truck from a neighbor mm-hmm. <affirmative> and went and bought it. He signed the bill of sale, he got the title, he drove it home and the next day the car wouldn't start. And I was like, oh, did you got sold a lemon where you're just so mad? And he is like, no, I bought it. It is now mine. It is no longer that person's responsibility. It's not my responsibility to figure out what's wrong with it. And it's like, oh, it's just a spark book. $6 car works just fine. Right. That person, you know, it's no longer that person's problem cuz they sold it to me. And this is the inverse of that. Once you sold it to them, you're done. And that's okay. I think you helped me wrap my head around through this podcast and the conversations we have is that, hey, I have exchanged a good or a service. I now have a check. I no longer have any ownership of it. I should worry about what happens to it from there on out, because I got what I got.Michael Jamin:Mm-hmm. <affirmative> some people. Yeah. Some people, they, they have asked me questions, well, if you sell a project and it doesn't get made and they don't get made, most don't get made, uh, can you buy it back? I'm like, why would I buy it back? You know how hard it's to sell that I got that money. I already spent that money. I don't wanna buy, I don't wanna buy it back. I will co I will create something else and work on that. Why would buy it back? That sounds crazy. That sounds,Phil Hudson:I think it's cause people are so tied to their ideas. Yeah. I think it speaks to maybe it's a little bit of scarcity mindset mm-hmm. <affirmative> where you feel like this is the best thing I have and I need, this is my last shot and nothing I do will be better than this or I don't have any, anything else. Um, and, and that's why they're worried about that. It might be one of the best ideas ever. Mm-hmm. But ultimately that's not your decision to make unless you want to be an indie filmmaker and then you should just go make your film.Michael Jamin:Yeah. So that's exactly right. So how then, like, I guess the next question would would be like, how do I define success if, if, if I get so much rejection, what does success look like? And to me, I think anyone listening to it, I think there's a couple. You just change your criteria. To me, success is getting, getting to do what I do on a daily basis for, you know, as long as I get enough money to pay the bills, success is like, okay, so I don't have to go to another job, <laugh>, I don't have to drive a, a cab or whatever it is. I get to do what I do in the field that I choose. And sure. Wouldn't it be great if I made 5 million? Yes, of course. But, uh, the fact that I don't have to do this other job. Okay. That means I'm successful.Mm-hmm. <affirmative> success could also just be mean. And, and for those people who are even not at that level, what does success mean? Success could mean just writing something that moves people. Like why is that, why, what's wrong with that? Like, okay, so I didn't sell mm-hmm. Did it move someone? Isn't that the goal? Isn't that why you're doing this? Is to write something from your heart that moves people? And if that's not your goal, then what are you doing? Why are you want to be a writer? What is it that you want? Do you want the parking spot that says write or on it? What is, you know, what exactly do you want?Phil Hudson:Yeah. And that's why you want your personal essays and you've, you've talked about that, right? Yeah. Is it's self pure self-expression from you without anyone else having any control over it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's not, you're not selling it to anybody. You are trying to compile it into your own book. Right. I think we've made that public, but you are ultimately doing it because it's your personal form of self-expression. And it gives you the opportunity to do that to move people, which is what Yeah. The reviews have said that people who've attended your live events, they, they said they, they've been deeply moved byMichael Jamin:It. Yeah. And that's that, honestly, that is an honor. The fact, and like one thing I, so I just did two shows in Boston and I'm trying to convince myself that I broke even, I didn't break even. Right. <laugh> <laugh> because I have expenses I had to fly and all that stuff. Um, but, um, but the, the, the gratification that I got, it wasn't even from like, like selling out or counting the tickets or hearing the applause. The, the gratification I got was afterwards, like meeting people in a lobby or outside and then getting the, just like hearing like, oh man, thank you. Like thanking me. They paid me to sit in a theater to listen to me. And yet they're still thanking me because I gave them this experience. Like, that is the gratification part. That's what I take the joy in, you know.Phil Hudson:That's awesome. Kind of backing up a little bit to this, and it's on the, the same subject you said, you need to redefine what success looks like, right? Yeah. Another thing that I think you've done really well, and it might have been a couple weeks ago, you put a post out on social media saying that, you know, if you are a writer and you have written, you are, you know, if you have written you are, or you are writing, you are a writer. Yeah. And that reminded me of this blog post I read back in 2008 or 2009. It might have been on John august.com. Um, but he talked about, someone talked about like, what is the definition of a professional writer? Is it someone who writes every day? Is it someone who gets paid for something they have written? Is it someone who has something done that you can, you can go watch in a theater? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and you are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, if you are writing, you are a writer.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Phil Hudson:So that is success in and of itself.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And that is, you know, someone, uh, so I let, there was a post that someone made on social media that I, I saw and, uh, not on my account. And they, they, some guy accused this other guy, uh, you're just a failed actor. You're just a failed artist or whatever. He's failed something. And I was like, man, that's such a dumb thing to say. Like, you're not failed. It's if you're doing, if you're trying, you're, how is that a failure? A failure is not trying, a failure is like just giving up before you even try. Like you're, there's no such shame as a failed artist or an artist. You're, you know, and it's like, and the, and the example that I used is like Van Gogh arguably the greatest artist of all time. You know, he died before, before he was known. He died, you know, in a, I think it was at a Mendel institution.He didn't like, he was known one when he died. So does that mean he's a failed artist? Van Gogh? Is Van Gogh a failed artist because he didn't make any money when he was alive? Like, that's crazy. You know? And so I think if you just have to have realistic, you just have to define not realistic, but you have to, to redefine how you see, uh, success and his success. If this time spent being creative, like, how, to me that's the time best spent. How is that not like what is there better? What? Well, no time spent shopping is, is more valuable. You know, time spent, stand watching tv. No, I think time spent creating, regardless of whether it gets made or shopping, you get paid. That to me is like, if you can afford that, if you have the life that can afford an hour a day or half hour a day just doing that, that's success.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. And I think, um, again, reframing that principle, this term we talk about in personal zone reframing, which is looking at your perspective through a different lens or mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, making a different story in your head about what it means. And I might be jumping the gun in here a little bit, but I, what I think you're getting to is one of the best strategies for dealing with rejection is reframing what success means. Because if I'm successful just for having finished a screenplay or a pilot that I love and I feel is representative of who I am today, not 10 years from now, or not my perfect myself, but who I am today, that's success. Passing it on to other people who ultimately don't like it or don't think it's works that might be rejection from a commercial perspective mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but it's all it is, is a litmus test for where I am today. And it doesn't expect me.Michael Jamin:And it's like what you're saying, like, to complete a screenplay, that's a big deal. That's a lot of work. You know, I I'm assuming you didn't write it in an afternoon. Like it's a lot. It's a big time commitment. A lot of thought went into it. And then when you finally finish it, that's a big deal. Most people only talk about writing a screenplay. Yeah. You know, they talk about it, but did you? And you did it. So that's success, you know?Phil Hudson:Yeah. It's huge.Michael Jamin:Um, what else did I wanna say about this? Uh, oh, there's another, it's funny, I, I had this years ago when I was writing a King of the Hill, uh, uh, another writer on a John Collier who went on to become the showrunner of bones many years later. John's a is a great guy. And I remember complaining about something, uh, and I, and about it was, you know, it was jealousy, professional jealousy about something. And Collier said to me, he goes, you know, uh, there will always be someone younger than you, less talented than you, making more money than you. And I just thought that was perfect. I was like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. You know? So, you know, compare, you know? Yeah. That's just how it is. So you don't, I don't need to compare myself to that person. It's okay. So I'm, it's not, the world isn't always fair. The most talented people don't always win, you know, but that's, that doesn't mean it's not worthless. Doesn't mean you have less worth than somebody, or your work is less, less worth, uh, worthwhile. Um, yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I mean, think about just, uh, what it means to be an Olympian, right? For example, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the you're the best of the best of the best. And the top point, like 0, 0, 0, 0 1% of them get a gold medal. Yeah. Does that mean being an Olympian and getting a gold, a silver or a bronze makes you a failure?Michael Jamin:Not a, or even, there's so many people, especially like in women's gymnastics who are so good and they don't even make the team because of, you know, there's only so many slots and it's like they could have easily been on the team, you know?Phil Hudson:Yeah. So, and, and there's stories of that happening too, where I think there was a, a skier from from Canada who didn't make the national team there. So he moved to Australia, became a citizen in Australia, and ended up winning the goal that the Winter Olympics for Australia.Michael Jamin:Wow. Right. Yeah. So he was good. Yeah.Phil Hudson:It's, it's a statement of, um, sometimes circumstance and, um, bad luck or bad timing prevent you from being, seeing the success in air quotes that you think you deserve. Uh, but you ultimately have the ability to change that. And I think that's something I appreciate about your message that you put out on social media and on a podcast, is stop giving control to everybody else and just take control of your own.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Stop asking for permission. And I'm, I am the same way, man. There's things that I want outta my career that I am not getting, and it doesn't, okay. I will figure out how to do it myself. Becau and I practice what I preach. Am I disappointed about? Yeah. But it is what it is. And so move forward and to be honest, so much about success in life is just not stopping. It's not, it's just like, it's just not quitting. It's just keeping, you know, it's, it's, everyone drops out. It's so hard that the fact that people drop out and stop doing it, that's good for you. That, that's cuz as long as you're committed to not stopping, that's good. That means, you know, you're still on the game whenever the people are just dropping out because they drop out because it's frustrating and it's hard. Good more room for me. You know,Phil Hudson:Literally, uh, your, your competition goes away. So I think I've heard people say you'll, anyone can make it in Hollywood if you're willing to, to last long enough. Yeah. Just last, the people around you, and we talked about this too, I think, um, you know, I look at the people that came from film school that I graduated with or I associated there and probably like half a dozen, dozen of those people here in Los Angeles, and two or three of my roommates have moved back to LA or moved back to their hometowns.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil Hudson:Cause they just,Michael Jamin:They they didn't want enough or it is too hard. Yeah. Which is fine. It's a Well,Phil Hudson:They change their priorities. Right.Michael Jamin:Right. And that's fair too. That is totally fair to change your priorities. It doesn't mean you're a loser. It doesn't mean you are a quitter. It just means, okay, now that you've gotten a little older, other things are more important to you. Okay. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with no shame in that. Uh, it, it's just the shame is not, it's really just not trying when you had the chance. Like that's, that's, you know, because I, I say, I've said this and I hope I haven't said this year, I probably have cause I repeat myself. But like, everything comes with a, in my opinion, everything comes with a price. Everything you do in life is either going to, you're going to either pay with sacrifice if, you know, if you want it bad enough, you're gonna sacrifice, you're gonna, or it'll, you'll pay in regret if you don't try it.You know, one or the other, you're gonna pay my opinion regret costs more than sacrifice. But that's, that's a personal decision. So, you know. Yeah. And go, I just say go for it. And there's so many people. But, but you have to really put yourself, you know, you really have to be committed to putting a, a serious effort. Like, you know, take the time and work on your craft if that is, you know, all these things that you can do that other people just don't do, just out of laziness, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so whatever it is, like, even if it's like following my, watching my post, what post, one post that I posted day on Instagram or whatever, that's a three minute commitment. Can you commit to that? And if you can't and the these posts are meant to help you. And if you can't commit to that, what's going on in your life? What's going on with you can't find three minutes, youPhil Hudson:Know, the priority issues there. Right.Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:Yeah. Look, I, I think, I think is there a need to decompress and a need for self-care? Absolutely. Is can you push yourself a lot, lot further than I than you think you can. Yes. Um, each of us have our own pain thresholds and tolerances, but those things can be developed over time. And so that doesn't mean you go to the gym and you blow out and you bust your butt as hard as you can day one and then you can't lift for five days because you're just so sore. You know, it means showing up and doing the minimum effective dose. What's that little bit that you can do today to get ahead Right? And you can transition your life. Yeah. I was, was a really interesting podcast. There's an episode of the Tim Fair Show with a, uh, an investment in Graham Duncan. And he talked about this principle of, of timeline horizons, which is I'm projecting out how far I'm gonna get things done. And often our timeline horizons are days and weeks, not years or decades. Right. And if he pulled up the number, and I'm gonna mess up the, the number here, but you can Google and look it up, but it says, if you look, think about the seconds, right? Like the how seconds work, A million seconds is 11 days. Mm-hmm.Michael Jamin:<affirmative>. Okay.Phil Hudson:A billion seconds is like 31 years end some change.Michael Jamin:Mm-hmm.Phil Hudson:<affirmative>. And so if you think about how rich you are in seconds and how valuable that time is mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the question is where are you spending those seconds? Right? Right. Are you spending those seconds on social media watching random stuff? Where are you engaging with and learning from people like you and other people who are ki trying to teach people and help the next, um, you know, group of screenwriters take, you know, come to Hollywood and succeed.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil Hudson:Are you putting in that time working? Are you developing your story ideas? Are you breaking them? Are you educating yourself through YouTube videos, through um, taking online screenwriting courses? Are you take reading books? Are you, you know, working mm-hmm. <affirmative> and building a network of people. That's all valuable stuff that is part of the job. Screenwriting. Not just sitting down at the computer typing in final draft. You have to do all of those things.Michael Jamin:And I'll, I'll say this as well, like, let's say you don't want to, let's say you decide not to be a screenwriter and do something else. Like, just to be clear, whatever line of work you go into, you will deal with rejection <laugh>. So it's like, it's not like the Hollywood owns, uh, has the monopoly on rejection. So you might as well get rejected from doing something you want to do <laugh>. Yeah. You know, that's noPhil Hudson:Point. That was really interesting too. Cause I had an experience recently in Hollywood where, you know, I ran into trouble with somebody who was not necessarily what call a benevolent person they were mm-hmm. <affirmative> just kind of self-interested. And they tried to throw me under the bus for some things and I remember calling you and I was like, man, it made me wanna just give up and walk away. And he's like, that's cuz you've been working for yourself. If you've been working in any other job, you would've dealt with these people. Right. But I've been so employed for so long, I don't have to deal with crappy people. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> being crappy, but they exist everywhere. So yeah, they're everywhere. Okay. Am I gonna deal with in a corporate gig in to, in Toledo or am I gonna just be in Hollywood and do what I want to do anyway and just put up with it here? It's the same, same problem.Michael Jamin:And and this speaks also to actors. Like, you know, you wanna talk about, you think it's hard for me in a writer. I, I mean actors, they deal with rejection every day. But the smart ones, they reframe it. And so like the, I mean, oh, it's brutal to be an actor. And so they, back in the day when we were doing auditions in person, it wasn't uncommon for me to go to my office and then pass literally 10 actors sitting in the hallway outside my office waiting to read for a part. And then you call 'em in and you audition and you know, nine of them are not gonna get it. And one of them, only one will. And all 10 of them worked their butts off the night before preparing. Uh, then the next day they slept across town in traffic running from, you know, leaving their job, whatever it is to try to get this audition. And only one of those 10 actors is gonna get it. And so it's brutal. But the smart ones, they consider that audition as that's what, that's the goal. Uh, I get a chance to perform for three people, that's it. But I'm performing for three people. I'm not getting money, but I'm still performing for three people and just trying to impress them. And okay, so I didn't get this job. Maybe I'll get the next one. You know? Uh, yeah. And, and as long as I impress peoplePhil Hudson:Or Oras your wife Cynthia, who's a very talented actor, you know, she says is making an impact in the room so that the casting director remembers who you are. And that's how she got a lot of her work. I get a lot of auditions and they're from, um, acting or casting directors who know who I am. And they, they call me in for specific parts. Cause I'm a type, I'm, I'm not, you know, the leading man that most people think of. I, I play a type, um, you know, on the subject of reframing, since we both brought it up, I think it might be worth exploring a little bit just for a second and helping people understand what that is. Cause I'm sure some people don't understand that conceptually. So what we're talking about here is, there's several ways of looking at it. And you are gonna come in based off of your experiences, your unique experiences of life, you're gonna come at that with a story.And that story's going to say, man, I busted my butt and I'm sitting in a room with 10 people who literally look just like me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, same height, physical build, everything, odds of me making this one in 10. I'm not gonna get this part. And if you let that affect you, you're gonna go in there and perform at a lower level than you could have otherwise. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Or you could tell yourself a different story, which is the reframing, which is I get the opportunity to perform for three people. I am an actor. This is incredible. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or I get to go in and make an impression. You know, I think it's that, I don't know how true, how true it is, but it was that George Cloney story. Go, I go into the room and I think I started seeing success when I started saying I'm the solution to their problem. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> instead of I want them to give me this part.Michael Jamin:Yes, exactly. Exactly. Absolut's a reframe. What, what can you bring to the table? We'll get to that. But I should also say like, some people say like, you know, so I, I've worked with some writers who maybe you make you wonder, how do they, how are they here? Here? Like, they're not that good. How are they in the same room? And you know, but the truth is they're here cuz they didn't give up. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, good for them. They didn't give up. Uh, so that's why they're there, you know, and, and you know, maybe even if you think you have no talent, well maybe you could be one of those people by not giving up <laugh>, you know, don't give up. That's all. Just keep at it.Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.So, okay, so one of the things I'm, I'm creatively most just, I'm just really into now is writing and performing, uh, my one man show. I'm just into it. And, and part of me wishes, ah, man, I wish I had started this 30 years ago when I was young and really made a go out of it. Right? Because now I'm kind of old. Uh, but the truth is I couldn't have done it then. I did. I wasn't a good enough writer back then to do it. This what, you know, I just, it took, this is how long it took. It takes a long time to learn how to write. Uh, and so, you know, it is, it is what it is. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know,Phil Hudson:That's a really important note for people is oh yeah, you've had 26, 27 years experience, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> in Hollywood mm-hmm. <affirmative>, yeah. Years in Hollywood trying to break in before that college, lots of that time putting in effort knowing this is what you wanted to do and you're literally saying, I can do this job now. I couldn't do this 26 years ago.Michael Jamin:No way.Phil Hudson:10 years agoMichael Jamin:I got rejected from the Creative writing program in college twice. So I wasn't good enough to get into the creative writing program. Then when I moved out here and I took an a, uh, a writing class, uh, my, my teacher thought he was doing me a favor by saying, you know, you're not gonna be a good writer, you know, to do something else that way you'll be happier. And I, I was like, no, I, no one gets it to tell me what I'm gonna be. You know, I'll just have to, I may, I just have to learn more. I just have to study harder and just keep at it. Um, and, and you know, I had a, a moment honest, maybe, uh, maybe half a year ago, um, where I kind of just had this realization. I just finished writing one of my stories, my personal essays, and I had this moment where I kind of realized like, damn, I'm now the writer I always wanted to be when I was in college like that. And it took 26 years to get there, but I'm there now. And it's like, you know, it takes as long as it takes, but I, I went, I moved as fast as I could.Phil Hudson:It takes as long as it takes. Yeah. All. And are you ready? I didn't get outta the storm. Right. Yeah. And if you're not, then go be happy doing something else. And I, and I, I hated that advice. I heard that advice a lot. It's like, if you could be happy doing anything else, go do that.Well, I don't agree with that. Cause I could be happy with a lot of things, but at the same time, I know I would be unhappy 20 years from now sitting at the theater knowing I didn't give him everything I had to do this. Right. That the unhappiness and you talk about rejection or regret earlier. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is this, there's something that people do that I think is a really powerful, um, experience, which is going into retirement centers and, um, you know, assisted living members Yeah. And spending time with them and talking to people at that last stage of their life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and all of them talk about their regrets. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I regret not doing this. Not chasing that dream. Not going after that girl or that guy, not mm-hmm. <affirmative> pursuing that thing, not, not taking that vacation, not spending more time on the family. It's all regret, regret, regret. And so,Michael Jamin:Right. So you, you're not gonna regret trying. You'll say, okay, it didn't work out. I didn't succeed, but you're not gonna regret having tried. Why you wouldn't.Phil Hudson:I just had a really, you know, I had to go in and do, um, ADR for the role I played on Tacoma fd, which was a really cool experience. And afterwards we were talking, it was me and, um, two of the guys who work on our post team. Uh, one of 'em was senior level, one of 'em, you know, uh, uh, coordinator level. And we were talking about Brian, cause the coordinator wanted to be a writer. And he, we were talking about scripts and the other one was like, yeah, I went out, I came out to LA and I gave him what I had for like 10 years. And I was good enough to get meetings. And then I remember I was a reader for, um, a studio and the film phenomenon came around and I read that script and I thought, that is what I want to write. That is so good. And then it clicked, I will never be that good. And that's like, that's what it realized. Okay, I gave it my shot. Now let me have a career in Hollywood that I can still enjoy.Michael Jamin:Okay.Phil Hudson:Okay. And that was for him, his moment. You know, it was like, I try,Michael Jamin:But he could, I, I, I disagree. He might've, he might've, he stuck with it. He might have written,Phil Hudson:There you go. But for him, that was his moment. And he doesn't live with regret about that.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil Hudson:Okay. Which, which, yeah, he could, he continued to push through it probably.Michael Jamin:So I did a post a couple of days ago, or weeks ago, I don't remember. But, um, some people think like, what are the odds of me making it in Hollywood? You know, there's, there's too many people I'll ne I'll never become a screenwriter. I'll never, you know, I'll never make it. But the truth is, the odds aren't as bad as you think they are because yes, everyone and their brother has a script that they're trying to sell and one and dreams of, you know, whatever. I have an idea why one, yes. So many people have that, but the vast majority of those people are not serious about it. They're just not. And so it's like saying, you know, entering the New York City marathon where it's some, I don't know, like 50,000 people enter that race, right? And she would say, oh my God, I gotta beat 50,000 people.If I wanna win the marathon, I gotta beat 50,000 people. No, you don't. Only a couple dozen of them have any chance, have any shot of actually winning the thing. Most of those people are just, they're running for the fun of it. They're running to say, say they did it. They're running to maybe beat their previous time, but only a couple. It doesn't have any shot of winning this thing. And they train every day. They take it seriously. They have habits and they race. And these guys, these men and women want to win the thing. So if you wanna win the marathon, you don't have to be 50,000 people. You have to beat two dozen people. That's it. That's it. And the same thing with being a screenwriter. Most people just don't take it seriously. So you don't have to beat, forget about those people. Are you taking it seriously? Are you studying? Are you working? Are you working every day? Are you right, working under craft? Or you're learning? Are you improving? Are you that person? Because then you might have a shot.Phil Hudson:That's another beautiful reframe right there for anyone who's keeping score, right? Yeah. Oh look, I gotta beat five 50,000 people. No, you need to be beat two dozen.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Or less. You know,Phil Hudson:It's, but it goes back to what you've always said though. You have to treat the job. If you're gonna be a professional screenwriter, you have to be a professional. Yeah. You have to get up, you have to write, you have to do the daily habits that get you there. And if you're not doing that, then again, you don't have three minutes to listen to Michael Jam and give you a tip today about screenwriting. What are you doing with your life? Why are you doing this?Michael Jamin:But also, if you don't enjoy it, if you don't enjoy the sitting down and writing, if you're not getting something out of that. And why do you want to be a writer? And, you know, cuz you're, are you doing it for the money, for the fame? There's other ways to become famous and rich than, than doing that. So, and, and, and by the way, there's a lot of work that I have to do as a professional writer that I have to do for free. So if I'm not enjoying that part, like why am I doing any of this? You know? So like, why, why do you wanna be a screenwriter if you don't enjoy writing? You know?Phil Hudson:Yeah.Michael Jamin:I do a lot of work for freePhil Hudson:Clout fame, prove people wrong. Again, there'sMichael Jamin:No clout. I don't walk into the supermarket and people fuck they, they throw food at me. You know, I, I What's the clout <laugh>? No one cares. No one cares. Uh, you know, you gotta do it for yourself.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I know. Uh, reality TV stars who, uh, flip houses on TV and then they can get into clubs because they have recognition. I know a lot of writers who no one knows who they are at all.Michael Jamin:Oh, no one know. I mean, it's so funny that, uh, it's so funny. There's only a handful of famous writers, really. I mean, I guess Quentin Tarantino, who else? I mean, who, I mean, you can name it a handful. Sean Writers Sorkin. Right. He's probably the, he's a great example. Aaron Sorkin. But the rest of us you never heard of.Phil Hudson:Right.Michael Jamin:You know, uh, and but we, we existPhil Hudson:<laugh>. That's right.Michael Jamin:Um,Phil Hudson:That'sMichael Jamin:Right. SoPhil Hudson:You had some beautiful notes here about, um, rejection, some experiences. Like, there's this Einstein quote that I think is really OhMichael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Certain my Einstein, my shameless Einstein behind me. I've had this thing for years. But, um, yeah, I think that that quote's pretty beautiful. And I think that's a, a good point that would help people.Michael Jamin:He said, Einstein has a famous quote. He, he said, and he was smart. We can agree on that. The most important decision you'll ever make is, is the world benevolent? That's it. And this is, I mean, it's almost, it's very spiritual and you're like, Einstein said that. Yeah. And it's because if you think the world is benevolent, if you, if the universe is out to give you and, and help you, then you will see proof of that everywhere you look. If you think the world is malevolent out to get you, then you will see proof of that. You'll see all, everything will back up that, uh, will support. It's funny, I was just watching an episode of, um, uh, Gimel del Toro's, uh, curiosity Curio, whatever it's called. He has a, he has a, uh, a television show about, you know, it's like an anthology series.And in this one episode, there's this one guy, and he's kind of like, he's bidding on a, um, uh, one of those lockers, the storage lockers. I can't remember the actor. He's, he's a good actor. He's great. But the point is, this guy was like on the bottom of society and everything he saw was, I'm getting screwed left and right. Everything. That's how he, that's how he saw the world. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is just that through that lens. And even when something good happened to him, it was, nah, the world is out to screw me. And, you know, and there are people who think that way. And the other hand, if you make the decision that the world is here to help me, every little thing, even when the, even when things aren't going my way, that's just a sign of the universe giving me this little challenge to help me in a different way. You know? And if that's how you see it, you'll just be a happier person. YouPhil Hudson:Know, again, it's a, it's a frame. You get to choose which frame the lens through which you view the world. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I, to back to something you said earlier that reminded me of this anecdote from when I was in sales, you know, I didn't want to be a sales guy. I, I kind of pushed back, but it was, uh, in the middle of the recession and I had to take the job. It paid way more than I was thinking of about other jobs I was doing. And so I was like, okay, we'll do it. And I, I sucked for like six months, honestly, looking back, it's kind of amazing. I wasn't fired, but my boss believed in me. And he gave me this book on sales and I read it, and in it, there's a note, like right at the beginning, he says, A sales champion has to remember that every no gets you closer to a yes.Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. It's just an average. It's a, it's a law of averages. I know that for every 10 people I ask for the sale, one or two of them is gonna say yes. And so instead of being upset or feeling rejected, because everyone shoots you down, you know, eight of 10 are gonna shoot you down, say thank you. Why? Because that person, you just save time, not wasted. It's gonna get you to the person who's gonna give you your Yes. Faster. And so that's what this is. I mean, you're, you're just, thank you so much for that rejection. Now I'm closer.Michael Jamin:But it, it's even deeper than even the see, you write a screenplay and doesn't sell, but the process of writing it gives you some kind of joy or satisfaction or helps you see the world in a different way. Or meditation gives you some kind of, yeah. It brings you some kind of inner peace or whatever. Isn't that like, why isn't that wonderful? You know? Yeah. And so even like, that's a great point. I go back to the show that I, that I'm, that I'm doing. It's like, I wrote this bunch of pieces and people were really moved by that. And like, I was just so, they were grateful to me, but I was grateful to them. I really like the fact, it just brought meaning to me that I was able to bring meaning to them. Like that, that I told them a story that touched them.That, and I say this and every, the, the goal, whenever I'm writing a piece and you can't achieve it on every piece, it's just not possible. But cuz there has to be a different, every, every piece has to be a little different. But like, when I'm writing, I'm always thinking, how can I get the person who read this or who watched this or see my goal is like, they just left the theater, they just saw my show. Can I get them to sit in the car for just a few seconds before they turn the ignition on and just feel like, what the hell did I just see? Or what did I hear? Like, like, can I get them to just stop for a second and feel it? You know, that to me is the victory. It's not, it's really not. It's nothing else. Um, and, and sometimes he, like so many people afterwards said to me, oh, you should, will you trim this into a TV show? Will you sell it as like, I don't, I don't even know. That's not the goal. I swear to God, that's not the goal. Um, if I did sell it as a TV show, I'd make some money. I would have to make some changes and compromises that I don't really, that's not why I'm doing this. I don't wanna compromise anybody. Like after doing this for so many years, I don't wanna compromise it anymore. <laugh>. I just want to do something that's, uh, you know, authentic to my myself.Phil Hudson:You're, you're taking the advice you give everyone that follows you on social media, hundreds of thousand. I hope so. Follow you, which is put it out there. Just, just put it out there.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Put it out there and see, doPhil Hudson:It yourself.Michael Jamin:Put it out there and see if you can, uh, affect people on an emo you know, on some kind of emotional scale. And don't think about yourself. What's in it for me? No. What's in, what's in for them? What can I give them? How can I give them an experience?Phil Hudson:Serve, it's serving them. Yeah. Um, this, this ties into a principle of neurolinguistic programming, nlp, which is just a, it's a pseudoscience around psychology, but it just kind of looks at how people think about things. And it's, there's one principle that that really stood out to me, which is when I feel love, right? Like mm-hmm. My wife tells me she loves me. What is that actually saying? Or when I tell my wife I love her, it's the inverse. When I tell my wife I love her, what I'm really saying is, I love that I can love myself through you. Right? Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, I feel love for myself. When my daughter comes up and says that that, and hugs my leg when I come home, I feel love for myself. I feel I am lovable. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And effectively, if you think about it from this emotional passing or transition that we're talking about here, that's what I'm hearing you say is you are transitioning an emotion to these people mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that they are unwilling to or uncapable of filling in that moment themselves. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And when they come give you gratitude, it's giving you gratitude for the time, energy, and effort you put into it just as much as they're feeling for whatever it is that you triggered inside of them.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And it's, and it's a gift if you look at it as a gift that you're giving somebody. Cuz not everyone can write or write well or not everyone wants to go there in. They're real. And it's painful to go. Some of the stories I tell, like, I can see why people wanna ignore that kind of stuff. Yeah. Uh, you know, it is painful, but, um, if you can give them that, you're really giving them a gift. And, uh, and that's so gratifying to give someone that experience and move them in such a way, like why does there have to be a dollar sign attached to it? Like, you know what I'm saying? You don't, and for anyone's listening to this, you don't have to, you don't have to sell your script to, uh, in Hollywood for a quarter of a million dollars to be successful.Like, can't you stage something at your community theater <laugh> and, and get that same emo? I mean honestly, can't you? Why, why and why not? Yeah. You know, why can't you write something small and put it up on this community theater or have them have them stage it for you, whatever. And as long as the writing is good, you can give the same number of people, you know, a small number of people, whatever, 80 people at a time, a wonderful experience. And you don't have to get paid a quarter of a million dollars. You can get paid nothing and still feel on top of the world.Phil Hudson:What's the value of impacting just one person.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Right.Phil Hudson:Huge. Tremendous. I mean, think about yourself. How many times have you gone through your life and someone impacted you in a way that changed, changed or transitioned. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> your day or your week or your entire life. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it's probably a small one that that person doesn't even remember that is so valuable to you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And we get the luxury and opportunity to do that as riders. Yeah. And, uh, Michael, I I just want to again, thank you for the perspective that you put out there, because so many people, and I'm a hundred percent guilty of this comment at it from a, from a capitalist money hungry perspective of I want, I want, I want significance from my peers. I want to feel special. I want to feel like I I'm worth something in the small rock in the middle of a space. And all you're saying is you can do that. And you don't have to be, you don't need approval from anybody to doMichael Jamin:That. Yeah. You don't need Exactly. Hollywood. Right? You don't have, Hollywood doesn't have to give you permission. You can do it on your own. You just have to know how to, you just have to know how to do it. You have to write, you have to get good at it. So you, so you can do it that's on you, but you don't need anyone's per, uh, permission to do it evenPhil Hudson:If it 26 years.Michael Jamin:Yeah. There is a story. It's funny, the, one of the stories that I'm telling, uh, next week actually my show, I have another two shows in LA next week. And so one of the stories, it's kind of a funny little thing. So when I was in college, my friend and I went to uh, uh, we were walking through Neiman Marcus and there was a, you know, in the mall and there's a woman spraying cologne. And so, uh, do you want it? So we, we both, I walked through the cloud and, you know, whatever I was wanted 19 or whatever I was. And uh, and I said to her, I don't smell anything. Right. And it was such a dumb thing to say like, <laugh>, why am I calling her out? Right? And she said to me, oh, that means you're not ready for it. And it was such a condescending thing to say, <laugh>, and I was fuming and I spent the next 20 years fuming over this.Like, uh, uh, and then, you know, cause it's like, how would you say that? And that became the subject of one of the pieces that I'm performing, uh, next weekend, which is basically I reframed it. I thought, well what if I write a story where this woman who I've voiced, like how dare she, what if she was right? What if I wasn't ready for it? And so that's the subject of the story. And that's just like a little moment. And that a tiny moment from my past that I turned into a 25 minute story, uh, and I get to do that. I get to do that because I'm a writer. ButPhil Hudson:We all have this, what I love about that is like, I connected with that immediately just on the premise. Like I felt that in my, in my soul, and I'm sure other people listening us did too. And it took me to this moment, like when I was a missionary, um, you're out there and you're paying your way and you don't get paid to do it. And so we would be invited into, uh, homes and they would, people would feed us, uh, members of the congregation would feed us. And we went into this pretty wealthy neighborhood and it's like steak and potatoes, which is awesome. I'm on the border of Mexico and in America in Texas. And, uh, we sit down with a woman and she's like, oh, so what do you guys wanna do when you get back? And at the time I was like, oh yeah, I think I'm gonna go get my mba. And she goes, oh, that'll be good for you. You could run a subway <laugh>. Oh, the indignation I feel is still from that comment. It's just like, who do you think I am? Like <laugh>, you know, I could run a subwayMichael Jamin:And that's why it's great to write about that.Phil Hudson:What I love about that, immediately I came back from a mission and I got a job as a manager of a sandwich show.Michael Jamin:<laugh>. There you go.Phil Hudson:I need mba.Michael Jamin:I don't need an, yeah. Uh, there's just so many wonderful things. Like, I don't know, if you're a writer, you get to go back and one of the, honestly, and I know I'm, I guess I'm changing the subject, but, um, one of the things about the show that is so interesting to me that I get to perform to do it. And again, this is not me, Hollywood. This is me performing in a small theater. <laugh>. Yeah. That could be anywhere. You know? And I, and it is everywhere cause I travel with the show. But, um, one of the things that, uh, that I get to do, I, it, it occurred to me, and someone brought this up during my, one of the questions the q and a after you tried for q and a and uh, is that I get to, it's a time machine. I'm up there on stage and I'm going back through periods of my life and I'm in it and I'm performing it and I'm living it as if it happened to me 20, 30, 40 years ago. And it's so powerful to be in that moment. And that's something only a writer, I guess and a writer performer can do, is I built a fricking time machine.Phil Hudson:Yeah.Michael Jamin:You know, and so that's powerful to be able to do that. And that's, you don't have, you know, Hollywood doesn't have to pay you to do that. You can do that on your own if you know how to write.Phil Hudson:And the flip side of this conversation is if you do that and you do that well that is the kind of thing that draws attention and will probably read to Hollywood paying you to do that.Michael Jamin:It's possible. Yeah. It's po we'll say it's in, it's so interesting. One of the other things is, I, I, what I should mention is like, during this time machine when I'm performing and I'm in it this time, and some of these moments are from childhood, which are painful or funny or whatever. This time I'm reliving it, but I'm not alone. I'm with a room full of people, you know, I'm not alone. And it's, uh, it's a wonderful ex, you could feel it, you could feel, you could hear a needle drop, you could feel Yeah. Uh, people on the edge of their seat, you can get there. And, uh, like, and so what, so what if I didn't make a <laugh> a ton of money from this? So what isn't that great? You know? Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. It provides value and meaning to your life, you know? Yeah. World where many people struggle with that. I struggle. Yeah. From time to time.Michael Jamin:Uh, yeah. We all do. And I, part of the thing is I get a lot of writers cuz they follow me on, you know, social media. They come to the show and they say, man, you've inspired me. I'm like, good cuz you could do this too. Yeah. You have moments in your life you can do it. What's stopping you, you can do it.Phil Hudson:If there's anything that summarizes my experience with you, Michael, as a mentor and a friend, it's mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you can do this too. I, I think that that is yeah, a very beautiful summary of your perspective and why you put yourself out there is to help people understand you can do this too.Michael Jamin:Yeah. You can do it. It's like I, I, if I can help you just take what's inside of you and express it in a way that's engaging to other people. That's, that's the hard part, right? Yeah. That's what we, that's what we teach. But if you've learned how to do that, then you're giving people a gift.Phil Hudson:Yeah.Michael Jamin:You know? Yeah.Phil Hudson:Beautiful. Michael, any other thoughts on rejection or, orMichael Jamin:That's it. The beauty. That's how we deal with rejection. That's how, uh, that's it. It's how we deal with rejection. Phil, is there anything else we should No,Phil Hudson:No. I, I think, I think again, really, really positive stuff. It's great to be back here having these conversations with you. Yeah. I've truly missed, um, connecting with you this way and, and I, I hope that, I know that you've had some amazing guests on the podcast and I think that that perspective is mm-hmm. <affirmative> so beautiful for writers to hear and learn and see how these people made it happen. So most people are some really big names that we've all looked up to for years as well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> where their stories have impacted us. And to have that opportunity to interact with him on his human level is, is pretty incredible.Michael Jamin:It's funny cuz when I talk to some many of my guests, I go, you're saying everything that I've just said on my social, and we just laugh cuz it's, we all have very similar experiences about, you know, success, failure, how to make in h what the, what the journey's, like how to increase, increase your odd stuff like that.Phil Hudson:So, but it's beautiful. I mean, that's, it's a, it is, I think it's unifying for people like me and people like me 10 years ago, or anywhere in between there who are just trying to make this happen. It's, it's a, it's a very important lesson for people to know that you can, you can do this too. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> here is the, here are the mental and physical hurdles you're gonna have to overcome to do that. And the emotional hurdles. And if you can break through and you can be vulnerable and you can push, you can reframe what rejection means to you. You can have an impact. Even if it means you never become a name writer like Aaron Sorkin. Yeah. But you can still have an impact, even if it's one person in your own town or one person who watches that you do video you put out. Yeah. And that's enough.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Enjoy the process.Phil Hudson:Awesome.Michael Jamin:All righty, everyone. We're gonna, we're until our next podcast is what should we, uh, mention, Phil, should wePhil Hudson:Mention? Yeah, it's, look, we talk about this stuff all the time. We, you have a, a free first lesson from your screenwriting course@michaeljan.com slash free. And I think it is one of the most valuable lessons people can learn. It's literally the very first personal message you lesson you ever taught me, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> years agoMichael Jamin:You said. Yeah. Go grab that. That'll help for sure.Phil Hudson:Yeah, absolutely. Get that, get on the watch list, Michael jammy.com/watch list. You send out your top three pieces of content every week goes, that'll your Friday. Yeah. Um, do you have your online screenwriting course, which I am your biggest fan of personally? Yeah. The impact has had on my writing, and I know that that goes across the word for hundreds of people at this point.Michael Jamin:The whole thing was your idea. To be honest,Phil Hudson:<laugh>, I've, I I've been for years and I've told it so many times. Years. I mean, 20, 20 15. I, I was pushing for you to do that, and you're like, no, I don't. It's not what I gotta, that's not what I do. Like I don't have time. I'm so grateful. You did. I know there were plenty of people just like me who did. So michael jamen.com/course. You can go check that out. Um,Michael Jamin:Cannot, you know what else we can, you know, else we can unplug as I start touring with this, it's still whatever city you live in. If you want me to come to your city, go to michael jamen.com/upcoming and then enter your information there. That way when I do come, uh, when I get to your town, I'll, I'll, you know, you'll, you'll be alertedPhil Hudson:U P C O M I N G upcomingMichael Jamin:Up. Upcoming, yeah. Upcoming. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Awesome.Michael Jamin:Um, all right, everyone.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Thanks guys. Appreciate it. Michael, thank you so much for your time.Michael Jamin:Yeah, thank you all. Until next time, be safe.Phil Hudson:Keep writing.This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/screenwriters-need-to-hear-this/exclusive-content