087 - Jimmy Kimmel Writer Jesse McLaren

Jesse McLaren is a Jimmy Kimmel writer.Show NotesJesse McLaren on Twitter - https://twitter.com/McJesseJesse McLaren on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/larenmcjesse/Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptJesse McLaren:If something just pops into your head on a Saturday of a story that, you know, you'll be talking about Monday, right? Like, I I did it. I got, I got something I know is like, gonna be really funny to pitch on Monday, right? So it's actually a little bit of a relief. It's not like, oh, I can't stop thinking about work. It's like, oh, and now I don't have to stress Sunday night or whatever. It's like, I know that, well, I'm gonna go into Monday with something I think is, is strong.Michael Jamin:Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This. I got a very interesting guest today because he's gonna tell us all about something I know very little about, but I always aspired to do when I was younger. This, this, my next guest, Jesse McLaren, is a writer on Jimmy Kimmel. And again, I like, yeah man, I, I just wanna know all about that. Cause as a child, I was like, man, I, that, that would've been the, the pinnacle. But I went another way. I went into sitcom writing. But, but, but, but with how we met, we were, I was walking the strike line outside of Disney and then Jesse goes, Hey man, I know you. And he pulls me over cuz he follows, I guess he follows me on TikTok or Instagram. And I was like, Hey, what do you doing? And he's like, I'm on Kimmel. So, welcome to this show. Thank you Jesse, for being here.Jesse McLaren:Thank you for having me.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I wanna know all about, and I asked you, I asked him you know, you, I guess I'll talk to you like how you broke in and you're like, Twitter. So tell me what that, how that all came about?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I'm you know, like I, I've always wanted to work in late night. That's always been my end goal. And, you know, as aMichael Jamin:Kid, sawJesse McLaren:ConanMichael Jamin:AsJesse McLaren:A child. Yeah. Yeah. I remember like cutting school to see Conan. I, I grew up in Long Island andMichael Jamin:So you go into the city to see a show.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I just remember like watching in between, you know, the the segments, just watching the people behind the scenes going like, how do I end up working here when I was like, you know, 16 maybe.Michael Jamin:Wow.Jesse McLaren:And then I always watch work late night. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And then what did you think about, like, usually you, you write a packet and you submit, right? Is that, but you didn't do that,Jesse McLaren:That's usually what you do. Yeah. I mean, I for Kimel they found me on Twitter. So, you know, after I, I started tweeting jokes and making videos on Twitter as much as I could for a period of time. I used to work at you know, for a while I worked at different TV shows. So I, I'm one of the, I think many people late night who worked production jobs first. Right. I used to work at the field, field departments and that kind of thing.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I noticed it. So you worked like, on, on Colbert, you did a bunch of different showsJesse McLaren:Right. Yeah. I worked on a lot of daytime TV shows, Uhhuh <affirmative>, kind of, it's actually kind of a similar structure, you know as far as how the show runs, but it's obviously very different content. Right. Michael Jamin:But why didn't you ever start writing packets and submitting, or, I don't even know how that works. Why, why didn't you do that?Jesse McLaren:Well, I did. So when I was, you know, I, I, my first, I, you know, landed a job that was my dream, which I worked at the Colbert Poor. Right. doing production, doing you know, the field department when he would travel to DC and that kind of thing. And interview congressman. Right. A series called Better Know A District. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And whenever a writer job opened up there, anyone who was in the, you know, a PA or an ap, which I was, or anything like that, they would submit a packet. And you know, then starting, like, you get to know the writers and you start hearing rumors like, oh, you know, they're starting a new show called Larry Wilmore. Right. And, you know, our whatever. And you start submitting packets to whatever you can as someone who's not represented, but someone who kind of has,Michael Jamin:So how do you submit even if you don't have an agent?Jesse McLaren:Well back at that point, it was like, if you, you know, like you have a friend of a friend who's like submitting and they'll say, this is the email we're told to send it to. By this time it kind of becomes this like, network of just like, you know, so like, if you find out about a packet, you might tell some of your other friends, there'sMichael Jamin:A packet going on. So. Okay. Good. So how did you make, how did you have friends that knew all this?Jesse McLaren:I think that was from working at Colbert, you know, I was, I interned there, I applied as in when I was in college, I applied to be an intern at Everywhere, but I ended up at MTV Networks. Right. And you know, it was like my second to last semester I was interning at Nickelodeon mm-hmm. <Affirmative> and like in a tape room, just like, just filing tapes. And I, and in the orientation I heard someone in the elevator go, oh, you know, I'm gonna be at the Daily Show. And that's went wait, that, that was a possibility, you know? Yeah. and in New York at that time, yeah,Michael Jamin:Go ahead. No, tell, keep going. This's just fascinating to me. Go ahead.Jesse McLaren:This the, the Daily Show and the Colbert Report were like the two shows under MTV that were actually a show that shot and you would actually be part of a production, you know? Yeah. so I applied to be at the Colbert Report. I think it helped that I already had an internship with NT Networks and I interned there eventually, you know, made connections there, which sometimes throughout the next few years, like if they needed a PA for the week, I would come by and that kind of thing.Michael Jamin:See, this is what I'm always telling people. I say, get as close as you can physically to the job you want. And that's what you did is as an intern or pa whatever it is, you're just getting close. Just so you could learn, be around it, hear from other people, and just make those contacts that way. Right. And then, yeah.Jesse McLaren:Yeah.Michael Jamin:And then when you're putting together packets, I mean, each show they kind of do, they kind of want different stuff? I mean, they might, they must say they do, they must say no, Conan's voice is this and, you know, were you studying the Yeah,Jesse McLaren:I mean, every packet's way different. I mean, the, at the time the Colbert packet I remember was like pretty intense. It was like, you had, you had that segment, the word Uhhuh <affirmative>, I dunno if you're familiar with the show, but that one. But it was pretty, it was, you know, a to camera on one subject and it would have all these editorial like voices through text, just kind of like shining in Okay. As jokes. But also, and it was kind of complicated, especially if you've never written for, you know, like it's one thing to write a page of monologue jokes, but it's another like, write an entire one of these segments that has to like, you know, be about a topic that needs attention and then it's written in a clever way and, you know, so, butMichael Jamin:So you're basically coming up, were you coming with any original stuff or just like, okay, here's my version of, you know, of that the word or you, or you coming with any new bits for him to do, you know what I'm saying? Any like, you know,Jesse McLaren:Yeah. Any packet I've ever seen has always been different. Some, so that show specifically, I think they really were like, like focused on what they want. Right. For the packets. Like one of these segments we do one of these segments, we do, maybe it, you know, I don't remember exactly what it was, but it was pretty much like especially cuz that that was show wasn't like monologue jokes. It was a character who had a very specific point of, you know didn't realize he was saying funny things like that kinda thing.Michael Jamin:Right. And so you turn you hand in these packets. It's not like they have a hiring season, they justJesse McLaren:No. IfMichael Jamin:You get lucky, if they, if they were hiring today, great. If not, maybe they keep you on file. Is that how it works?Jesse McLaren:I guess. I mean, I've never gotten hired from a packet, so it's like, I don't, you dunno. I think every show is completely different and I think every you know, I'm not entirely sure how we do it at Kimmel, but I, and I know they found me through, through Twitter. I know other people have written packets for them, but I, and so onMichael Jamin:Twitter, this is amazing. So you're just going out. What were you doing at the time? You've been on Twitter for how, for how long? How many years?Jesse McLaren:Like a while <laugh>, I mean, I worked at like, so let's see, probably like eight years. I've been like actively really using it aMichael Jamin:Lot. And so every morning you, how would, like, before you get hired by Kimmel, what's your, what's your process for writing? You just come up, you sit down on the table, you read the newspaper and you try to bang out 10 jokes or what do you do?Jesse McLaren:No, I think it's more quality over quantity for that kind of thing too. Cuz you just wanna, I think the thing with Twitter is it's like, you know, but when the news story happens, this wave and you kind of want to get the funniest joke in there as early as possible.Michael Jamin:But are you ta Okay, so, but are you just putting it on your feed or are you writing it under el someone else's comment? Like a news, someone like newscaster's comment and then you, you know, to try to get their trafficked?Jesse McLaren:I think it, no, just writing a joke about, everyone's talking about one thing, you know, if you just have the perfect thing I'm trying to think of a good example. It's really hard off the top of my head. ButMichael Jamin:So you just post it in your, your feed, you give it a hashtag hope someone would search for it, hopes hope one of your whatever friends will follow you. Retweets it and it goes viral. Yeah. That's your plan, that's your, that's your plan basically. Yeah.Jesse McLaren:I think every social media's a little different, but like, especially Twitter, the whole thing is trying to get retweets. That's how something, and so how very quickly could have, you know,Michael Jamin:But then how, okay, so something would occur to you and then you'd write a couple jokes or just one or what, or as it as it comes, you just tweet it. And now did you have a schedule? Did you have any kind of discipline to this or were you just like, whatever came to you?Jesse McLaren:I don't think I had any discipline. No. I think with Twitter it's like, you know, it's in a, an addiction almost. It's just uhhuh. You'll be out today with your friends, you'll look down at your phone, just see like, oh my God, I can't believe, you know, just something happened. AndMichael Jamin:Okay. So you, you're on there a lot then basically you're,Jesse McLaren:I used to be on there very often. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Really. And so on an average day before you were found, like how many tweets would you send out in a day?Jesse McLaren:I don't know, maybe like five to 10 kind of. Okay. It's hard to tell. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And then some would get, but a lot ofJesse McLaren:It would also, yeah. And a lot of it would also just be like at work. I also worked at Buzzfeed for a while. Okay. So I kind of, one I in real life had knew people who you know, we followed each other on social media, but they had big social media followings. So they saw something, I tweeted a joke that they liked, they might retweet it and that would get me more followers. And then it also just working there really taught me a lot about how social media works and yeah.Michael Jamin:What, what, what did you learn that you could share? Like what's your take big takeaway?Jesse McLaren:Well, I think, I mean specifically with jokes and Twitter, I, you know, one, they all change over time a little bit. But I, I think Twitter consistently, like the, if you want a lot of people to see something you made, it almost doesn't even matter how many followers you have. But if you can get something retweeted a lot, it can kind of just work away brush fire where, you know, you might have, you know, 30 followers, but if someone sees it and retweets it and more people do it, it could, butMichael Jamin:Are youJesse McLaren:Creating a brand 30,000?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Are you staying on brand when you do this? Or are you like, cause it's one thing like, okay, this guy tweets out funny topical jokes every day and he is not tweeting out what he ate for lunch. Like, you know what I'm saying? Do, are you staying on brand? I'm a joke writer and that's it.Jesse McLaren:I don't know. Maybe, I mean, yeah, I don't know.Michael Jamin:You don't know. You're just going with it. Whatever was wor I mean, it worked. I'm just curious how it, how it worked.Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I mean, to me it was just always jokes and you know, I would also, you know, make videos or Photoshops just, you know, pieces of actual media, that kinda thing, Uhhuh. But it was always the goal of, you know, tweeting something and seeing as many people trying to get a lot of engagement with itMichael Jamin:And thenJesse McLaren:Hopefully something funny. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And then someone found it and then had, tell me how Kimmel came about.Jesse McLaren:I think, well over time, like, you know, I, the more I started realizing that this could lead to a writing job more than I, you know, I used to work at the Colbert Report, I submitted packets places, but that never really did anything for me. Right. Always, you know, never WereMichael Jamin:You frustrated? Were you frustrated by that? Were you upset or what, you know, when you weren't getting hired, what, how, what was your take on that?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, it's frustrating. It's also, if I go back and read one of those packets now I like can't do it. You know? So it's like, at the time I thought this is like the best interesting thing I've ever written. How could they not hire me? And thenMichael Jamin:Interesting. And really, cuz you've really grown and that just comes from practice, you think? Or what?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I think, you know, it's any, anything that gives you actual feedback is really important. And to me, Twitter gave me feedback. I'm really like, you know, not comfortable on stage. I don't have that drive. I don't like doing Right. Performance.Michael Jamin:I asked you that if you're a standup and you're like, no, I don't want to, I don'tJesse McLaren:Wanna do standup. Yeah. It's like, I never no interest. I like the one, the few writers who doesn't wanna be on camera Uhhuh. But Twitter for, that's why for me specifically, it was a really good way to learn how to be a better writer just because you'd see what people actually find funny and especially once, you know.Michael Jamin:Okay. So then how, so someone, somehow, one of your tweets, do you know which one landed on the, on the desk of Jimmy Kimmel somehow?Jesse McLaren:I'm not sure which one. I think it might have been about Mike Ee.Michael Jamin:Oh,Jesse McLaren:Okay. I feel like it was like some kind of like, I tweeted something, I just remember I think like Julie Louis Dreyfus maybe retweeted it or something. It's like sometimes you would see like, oh, this person retweeted or tweet, you know?Michael Jamin:Right. Jesse McLaren:And then I just remember like within quick succession, like Jimmy and a couple of his writers our producers followed me like within like 15 minutes. So I don't know if it was from that tweet or if it was from, you know.Michael Jamin:And how would you, how would you know? I mean, you're not following your followers by the second, I mean, no,Jesse McLaren:I, I if it says like, when, like, I think when someone verified, followed you. Okay. At that point it would be like, before people were verified, they were like, you know,Michael Jamin:And so you noticed they followed you and you're like, damn, this is good. And then what happened?Jesse McLaren:And then yeah, I eventually they reached out and just said, Hey, when, you know, we would respond to know more about you. And eventually that kind of turned into an interview process, you know, once I expressed.Michael Jamin:But they didn't ask ask you to submit a packet though?Jesse McLaren:I didn't end up submitting a packet for them. No.Michael Jamin:They just looked at your body of work on Twitter and go, okay, this guy's funny, consistently funny. Right.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I think, I think I kind of treated that week as my, or whatever it was as my packet where I would just consistently tweet things that I thought were in the show's voice or that they would maybe see and go, God, I wish, you know, we should have, we should have thought of that. You know, anything that I can think that they might think that is like what I really tried to do. AndMichael Jamin:Okay, so then they hire you. Tell me what your day is like. Well, first of all, are you working in person or are you on zoom or remote or now, you knowJesse McLaren:Yeah, we're in person.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you're in person. So you go to work, you show up, what, 10 o'clock?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, we start early at home and we write a lot of our jokes at at home first, which is great.Michael Jamin:<Laugh>. So you come in prepared. How many, how many jokes will you have when you come into work?Jesse McLaren:We will, you know, we'll write anything from, they'll always say it's quality over quality. Right. You know, they don't wanna have to sift through too many jokes just cause you wanna, you know so like, I would say that anywhere from 10 to 20 is normal.Michael Jamin:You feel good about it, you feel good there. Okay. These are, and then,Jesse McLaren:But it's, it matters. Which of your jokes get kicked. So in the morning then, you know, they'll kind of, I think Jimmy will go through all the material and at that point, you know, that's, that's all you care about. You know, you don't care about how many jokes you sent, you care about how many eventuallyMichael Jamin:Get. And so on a good day, what, how many of your jokes will get in on, on into the mono? You're talking about the monologue now?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. Yeah. I could someone told me when I started I've heard this from other shows too, people say like, one is a good day or is an amazing day. Right. That's something I've heard like at Colbert. And I think that kind of holds up. Like if you get, but it's more about, you know, it's not just jokes, it's kind of over time. Like, if you have one joke a few days in a row, maybe that's not great. If you have one day that was just incredible, you had a segment you wrote that did really well, you'd feel good. Right? And the next day you don't get any jokes, you know, you just be like, okay, well I had a great day yesterday and today I didn't get as many on.Michael Jamin:What, what do you do with the jokes that don't get selected? Do you tweet them or are they just go in the garbage?Jesse McLaren:I used to, sometimes I would tweet them, but it's, it just felt like, you know, you never know if a story's gonna come up again in some way you don't expect. Okay. And maybe that joke is worth revisiting. It's rare. You, you don't wanna read pitch a joke ever, you know, I'm sure. No,Michael Jamin:You don't wanna re No, you don't wanna pitch it again to, to, right. But yeah, I think you can retool it and change it enough to make it fresh.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. But also at a certain point you're like, well, this already failed some kind of test to this joke. You know? Right. Cause you never completely confident in a joke. You're like, well, if the show didn't want this, maybe it's not the best joke. So I've, in the past, a joke didn't get on, I tweeted it and it just fell flat and no one cared. And I'm like, oh, well,Michael Jamin:MustJesse McLaren:ThatMichael Jamin:Must not be funny. But, so if, when you come into work, let's say, all right, let's say you you put together 10 jokes. How long would that take you to, before you feel, okay, is it an hour work? How long does it take you to do that?Jesse McLaren:It's like they send out, you know, they'll send out topics in the morning. A writer's assistant who gets a very early will send out topics and then you send your jokes. And that's usually a period of about an hour and 50 minutes.Michael Jamin:But we'reJesse McLaren:The start out later. You can start out earlier youMichael Jamin:Know, are, when you, they say topics, are they giving you the setups of setups or they just say, we, you know, we wanna do jokes about inflation or whatever.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. Like here are like five, eight to whatever story, like five, eight stories that are good, whatever. Okay. If you have another story story, you think, okay, we should cover that. Go ahead. But it's like a good, just kind of keeps everyone grounded. At least we're all talking about similar things. TheMichael Jamin:Same thing. You see. That's interesting because like, I, I've tweeted a couple of jokes just as you know, when I had downtime, well, more than a couple, but whatever there I, I, I found if I went onto a website, I'm just curious what your take is like going on c n n or whatever, or, or ha Washington. Any website, New York Times, Washington Post go on their site and reading their headline or reading the article to me was not helpful. Cuz they already had an angle. Whereas I just wanted to get this, gimme the straight line. And so I would go into other, they would just like the news to, you know, you know, aggregators I the straight just gimme the straight line so I don't get any spin on it. And then I'll come up with a spin. Is that how you do it or no,Jesse McLaren:No, I think we just see the, the headline and to write jokes for something, you have to kind of think of every angle you can to see if there's something funny. So yeah, I think that usually works itself out because whatever the story is, you know, you're, it's more the headline and the facts of it that you're just trying to find any do youMichael Jamin:Feel you've gotten better at this over the years? Is it coming? Does it gotten easier for you?Jesse McLaren:I think it has gotten easier, but it's not like, oh, I get this many jokes on now as I think now, just the process is more I can recognize a good joke. Yes, I can, I can edit myself better now. Right. I can say, you know what, instead of saying sending these 15 jokes, I'm gonna send these eight and this is probably the best. You know, I think that's what I've gotten better at.Michael Jamin:And this is something that you do, even when you're in a b obviously when you're in a bad mood, when you're not in the mood to be funny, you gotta be funny.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. And it's, it's, but yeah, I, I just, I love it. I love sitting down and writing. I morning is my favorite part of the day and right know, I kind of like the way that it's, our day is structured where the most high pressure part is over with as quick as possible. Cuz once that's done, you kind of did as writers, at least for everyone else, the day is structured a little different, but for us it's like you have to really be on point in the morning.Michael Jamin:And how many monologue writers are there on Kimmel?Jesse McLaren:I think altogether we have, I should know, it's probably around 15 to 20 writers in general. Wow. But we're not split like other shows. NotMichael Jamin:Some other shows. Yeah. How do the, how do other shows do it? I cut you off. Some have monologue writers then what else?Jesse McLaren:I think like Fallon, I know had a friend there who was like, he was like, I'm a monologue writer. Like I write monologue. I think every show, you know, all these shows, I think every show kind of like figured it out for themselves. Yeah. So every show is a little bit of a different, like, universe kind of built around the same thing. But some of them are just, you know but some of them are separated where it's like, these are the monologue writers. These people write segment pitches or bits. But you kind of all do everything. AndMichael Jamin:So, okay, Seth, tell me what it's like. Okay, so you come to work now, you're given, you know, I don't know, whatever, 10 jokes. Now you're in the office and, and then what's next?Jesse McLaren:It depends, you know, with the jokes, you, if you, you also pitch any bits you could think of, like something that would just have more substance and be, you know producible. It's very important. You know?Michael Jamin:And that seems to be the hard part for me. How, how do you come up with that?Jesse McLaren:You know, I think that's what I was good at on Twitter is I think that's kind of what they liked about my Twitter. I would, you know, like one example I could think of that I think that they saw was Sarah Huckabee Sanders was giving it was like, you know, when Sarah Huckabee Sanders first started, there was a lot of attention on her. And everyone's like, who is this person? And mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, she, I think she was talking about sinkhole under the White House. Do you remember? That was a story. It was like, I, I don't remember that White House. Yeah. It was like one of these things, like at the time it was just like, what the fuck? It's like there are sinkhole opening up under the White House and there's, you see like pictures of caution tape and there's jokes about like, you know, they're sinking into hell or whatever it is. But she said in you know, she was, I remember what it was exactly, but she was maybe saying there aren't sinkhole under the White House, but whatever she was saying, she was denying that this was a thing. So I, you know, am able to, I even used After Effects to have her slowly sinking as she said that. And then, you know, she like plummets through.Michael Jamin:But that, that's a funny bit. But that would've been, that would've gone in the monologue, right?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I think so. So that, and, and, and that's something that but that's something I did before Kimmel. But that I think maybe got their attention maybe when they said that's the kind of thing we want, you know? Right. But that's what our show would consider. Like, a bit something that has some production to it that you could get that done by the end of the day. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And the fact that I kind of knew I could do this myself, it wouldn't look nearly as good as our team cuz they're professionals. Professionals. Right. But I know that if I pitched that at the show, I know like, okay, we can get this done by four o'clock, whatever taping is today. ButMichael Jamin:You wouldn't on the show, you wouldn't have done the app. You wouldn't have done the, the graphic. Someone else would've doneJesse McLaren:It. No. Yeah. Yeah. So just helps tap the knowledge. Yeah. It just helps to know like, cuz he never,Michael Jamin:It's producible. Yes. Right.Jesse McLaren:Drives people crazy. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But do and do bigger bits, like any kind of, you know, do you also do like something that are more stagey with him or out in the field or whatever? Do you pitch that as well?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I mean, those are you know, always a very specific thing. You know, it'll be like, those will be like an assignment. It'll be, Hey, by five o'clock, send some ideas for, you know, this actor wants to do something with us and they're promoting this movie where they're a fighter pilot or something. And you'll go, okay. Like, and we'll have them for two. Maybe you'll get, maybe you'll get something like that. We'll have them for a couple hours. Right. And so, and they can't change it to cost or whatever because they're becoming right from thing. You know, there's always like you, it's all restriction. Yeah. It's all you take, you take, especially in late night, it's like, what can we make the most out of, out of this? And yeah. And then there are some times that we do, we are able to do something that is time and production and people, you know, is a bigger thing.But, you know, for our main day to day Uhhuh <affirmative>, it's always thinking about making this producible. Making sure this is something that we can get done in time. Right. That's exactly right. You never wanna get them wet. Nothing where they have wardrobe change, <laugh>, you know, like their hair wet. But now what is the, what is like the, the contract cycle look like for a late night writer is like how long? Yeah. How long is your contracts usually? Three years, I think. Which I think is typical of Yeah. Like you have an option. I would assume a new writer would've an option for like 10 weeks or something. No, and then, well, I think, I think it's the op It's that thing where you're, well, I'm on cycles. I think about like 13 weeks, something like that, right. From their side. Like, they can get rid of me every 13.That's the way I always, always understood it when I worked in daytime. That's how it was. Like, you know, not even as a, just as like a field producer or whatever. They had me on, I think the same exact situation where every 13 weeks when I was at like you know, Rachel Ray or whatever the daytime TV show was, it was like every 13 weeks they might get rid of you or you could yeah. You're outta your contract after one year, two year, three years, depending on what they give you. That kind basically pay, pay raise. Right. That's what that, that's what that means. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, you renegotiate, you know? Right. You, yeah.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Jesse McLaren:You've been, well, you've been on staff now for what, five years on Kimmel? Lemme see. Yeah. Yeah. So you're not sweating it out every 13 weeks. The way someone who just started would be sweating it out. You know, I don't, yeah. I, I, yeah. I always am just like, so feel so lucky that I get to work in late night at all. And, but I can never, and and I'll always, if I have a bad week, I'm like, I'm gonna get fired. That's just always the way my brain just works. That's part of the way I motivate myself for good or bad. But it won't compare to that first 13 weeks where legitimately you're like, I might not be good at this job. I don't know. Cause I have no point of reference in how much collaboration is there with other writers? Do you have a writing room?We don't have as much of a writing room on our show in terms of like every day. Like, it's like we have a morning meeting of writers every day kind of thing. Uhhuh we just have our room just for like, oh, today we're just, it's more casual. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, it's more people have, if you're having a problem with something, you're just like, I can't figure out the ending to this thing. Whatever. Right. That's when you'll, we'll be like, oh, let's, you know, just bring it up today. And then there's a lot of just kind of casual. You just pull someone else in to something. You know, sometimes it's like, I have a really funny idea, I think for this guest coming up. I don't watch the show though. Like, do you watch this show? Does this make sense? Do you wanna team up with me on it and we'll both play together? Or that kinda thing. Yeah. Now,Michael Jamin:So who is it, I'm sure that, I'm guessing there's a head writer on Kimmel who reads all the submissions and decides what to give to Jimmy for his ultimate approval. Is that how it works?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. We have head writers who split, you know, responsibility. Yeah. Okay. And yeah, you know, because our show is so quick, you know, everything would be filtered through head writers or if it's like the show's starting in five minutes, it's like, just show him whatever, you know, if you need something approved for that night and he's in the makeup chair, maybe you would.Michael Jamin:Right. are you on the floor during taping or no?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. not often, no. I mean, our studio you know, I have just for like, I, I haven't too often now our our, our studio is a little cramped, so we don't really go in there tooMichael Jamin:Often, so, but you watch it. I, I guess in your office you have a live feed, you know, line. Yeah.Jesse McLaren:We, we, we'll watch it from, I mean it's, I'm saying this now because we just went through a pandemic, so we're still like, everything is still like very restricted and everything. Yeah. we're still like, you know, obviously you know, but we, we would normally watch it from like a green room in, in the building that would be like, you know, where everyone would just kind of meet up and watch the show.Michael Jamin:Right. See what works and what doesn't work.Jesse McLaren:Is there a posts the pandemic? It'sMichael Jamin:You know, do you talk about it afterwards? Or like, are you done once the show's done? Do you all go home? What what's next?Jesse McLaren:I think so. I mean, for the, for me, for the writers, like the staff writers, that's pretty much then you're just getting ready for the next day. Uhhuh <affirmative> you know I'm sure for the producers and other people on the show, it's a different story that, you know, but for us who have the easiest job, because we're our, you know, like I said before, the pressure for us is done in the morning. That's when we really have to get, you know, our ideas out and everything. Are there not as much sweating at that point?Michael Jamin:Are there many In my mind it's mostly a young, young person's game that there aren't, and I could be totally wrong about this, but there aren't, are there, are there many like people maybe my age who are still writing for, for late night? Or do they move on theJesse McLaren:Things? No, I think for sure.Michael Jamin:Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously Robert smis like the famous guy, but I, I didn't know like what kind of, you know, did these guys, did they bounce around from show to show? Is that how it works?Jesse McLaren:No, I don't know. Cause I think a lot of these shows are pretty like, you know the writer, there's not a lot of writing turnover. Some of them I think there are, but you know, where I've worked at Colbert and came, there's not as much turnover. And I think, yeah. The age ranges, you know, are pretty significant. You know, I think that at Colbert there's writers who have been there for since I interned there in 2008 who are still writing for him and Right. Michael Jamin:Interesting. Jesse McLaren:Yeah,Michael Jamin:So I mean, cuz you, I don't wanna,Jesse McLaren:I don't wanna name anyone as the old guy or something.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I know.Jesse McLaren:That's cool. Definitely different. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But they've been around the block. You must get their stories. Hey, what was it like writing for Jack Benny? I mean, you must, you must want to get their, their stories out of them, right? You know?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, absolutely. Like, yeah, there's writers who I, you know, didn't realize, you know, there'd be a sketch that I watched when I was 15, I thought was the funniest thing in the world. And you can find out that they, you know, my buddy wrote it and you're like, oh, that's so fucking cool. OrMichael Jamin:That's great. Yeah. Yeah. So your goal is basically that you want this to be your career forever until you're done?Jesse McLaren:Is that, yeah. I don't think it's sustainable, but it is. Like, I would just, you know, I'm just really love late night. It's like whyMichael Jamin:Do you think it's not sustainable though?Jesse McLaren:I, well, I just think it's tough. You know? I think it's so much of getting a job in late night is luck. No. So, and I'm a pessimist in general, so the fact that I've got this job, I was like, you know,Michael Jamin:But at this point you're proven. I mean, you've proven yourself. I mean, I don't know. I mean, I mean, I don't know. Right. You've, I imagine you've made contacts, you've proven yourself. If you were to start on another show tomorrow for a different post, you know I don't know. Like I I'm sure you'd be like, okay, I know how to do this job. Right?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I'm sure. Like, it's interesting, you know, we'll have a guest host on over the summer and it'll be like a really wide range of Right. Personalities. Like RuPaul David Spade, an actor who isn't an entertainer in that way, who, you know, just were kind of like a movie star. And it's like, you'll see some people, like, your jokes just do not,Michael Jamin:They don't how to deliver like Yeah,Jesse McLaren:Yeah. Not that now how to deliver it. They just don't pick your jokes. They just, your humor doesn't match up with them. And some of them are like people. You are your comedic heroes and you're just like, ah.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Jesse McLaren:So it's, it's, and I think it's, it is a little bit of a diced role too. Like if you you know, matching your writer with your hosts sensibilities and stuff, it's kind of like there's a tricky thing there. So I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of like just luck that goes into ending up at one of these jobs and having it really, really click.Michael Jamin:Well, what would you, what do you imagine is going on with the James Cordon writers? Like when, you know, cuz obviously they're all, they're outta work. What, what do you think is going through their minds? You know,Jesse McLaren:I don't know. I mean, I think everyone has a different, like writers are all so weird people. They all come from like, not everyone is like me, say like, I wanna do this forever. Like, some people are like, well, I'm gonna go back into this business. Some people are standups and they'll go do standups. Some peopleMichael Jamin:Do you think some people wanna go back into like, like a corporate or something? Like some regular business?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I think I, I feel like I've seen writers, like, especially from when I was at Colbert so long ago, just like, you know, end up leaving and doing things like in other genres, right. Children's stuff. Like, or just, you know, just kind of like, not necessarily stay in comedy day, late nights, stay in writing even. Right. So, I don't know, I, I couldn't speak for the court and writers and I think there was a lot of people who yeah, like had to stand up and do other forms of of comedy that, you know,Michael Jamin:Do you have, like, do you have a process or do you have a way of looking at the world or opening your mind to think of funny things? You know, is there, what's, how do you pro do you approach any, I mean, I have my own thoughts, but I wanna know what your thoughts are.Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I, I think I do things an analytically uhhuh or I, I, I, I write in the least funny way, you know? What does that mean? You know, when I, like when I first started at this job, I to have to, I've never had to like write 20 jokes in the morning, that kind of thing. And that, that was the main thing. I was like, I I'm not gonna be able to do it. I'm not gonna be able to do it.Michael Jamin:Mm.Jesse McLaren:And I would like literally write a post-it of like, ways to view possible, ways to get a joke out of a news story. Okay, I lost that post now. Like now I don't need that. But at that time I was like, cuz if I'm gonna need to write like three to four jokes out of just, and some news stories are just inherently not funny at all. Not only, you know, serious, but some of 'em are like, sometimes our topics for jokes will be the Dodgers are up in game two of the World Series and that's, you have to write jokes about that. And then the next night it's the Do Dodgers are up three in game three of the World Series and you have to write jokes about that. And it's like, howMichael Jamin:Do you go about doing that? What's, okay? So can you walk me through that? That sounds horrible. <Laugh>. Like, I don't know what's funny aboutJesse McLaren:That. Yeah, yeah. It's the thing. So it's just like, you have to think what cities are, what city are they playing? Also sports is my weakest area, right? It's like, what city are they playing? Okay la And you know, and you're just like, St. Louis, what can we make, you know, just whatever it is, whatever. If it's the NBA or wherever, like what are any associations between these two cities that someone, that there's some connection that you can make like, you know one celebrity who maybe lived in famously lived in just something, you know, and like, but something I maybe missed yesterday. You know, like it's tough. Yeah. Those are,Michael Jamin:I would think that's really tough. Like yeah, I, I might strike out on doing that. I really do. I really might. Like shit, I, I don't know. You're on your own, like, because I don't, you don't have a strong enough attitude or is it enough? Yeah, there's no, there's no attitude behind it. It's almost fact, you know? Yeah.Jesse McLaren:And if I have like two hours all my jo, most of my jokes will be in the last 10 minutes every time no matter what.Michael Jamin:Really?Jesse McLaren:That's, yeah.Michael Jamin:Do do. Where do you do? SoJesse McLaren:I think a lot ofMichael Jamin:Couch on the desk. Do you have a place you go?Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I'll do it on the couch or yeah. When I first started I was doing coffee shops just to force myself to like be somewhere Uhhuh <affirmative>. I have like, you know, I have a d d too. It's like any, you know, I have to really focus and I have to really force myself to focus sometimes. Cause it's so easy to just say, I'm just gonna like look at my phone. Or do you know?Michael Jamin:Are you able to turn it off though? I imagine like on, on a Saturday or Sunday big news story, you go, oh shit, this, we know we're gonna be talking about this on Monday.Jesse McLaren:Yeah,Michael Jamin:Definitely. And do you start making notes or you're like, ah, I'm off the clockJesse McLaren:<Laugh>, I'll make notes for sure. But that's actually really helpful because you know, if something just pops into your head on a Saturday of a story that, you know, you'll be talking about Monday, right? Like, I I did it. I got, I got something I know is like gonna be really funny to pitch on Monday. Right? So it's actually a little bit of a relief. It's not like, oh, I can't stop thinking about work. It's like, oh, now I don't have to stress Sunday night or whatever. It's like I know that well I'm gonna go into Monday with something I think is, is strong.Michael Jamin:So for you it's almost like solving a puzzle Sounds like joke writing.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. A little bit. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Do you have, do you do any other kinds of writing though?Jesse McLaren:Not much. You know, I do a little bit of like, just do, I've written like specs and stuff like that for fun to grow that muscle. Right. But really, it's mostly like joke writing and that is the, the main writing I do. And especially cuz you know, it is these, the job is a lot. It's demanding, you know, when the show is on, it's like, you know,Michael Jamin:And I noticed cuz you still post a on, on Twitter and TikTok a little. But has that fallen by the wayside for you? I mean, you're busy.Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I think a little bit for sure. Like one when the show is on on and you don't wanna tweet something that would've been Right. Funny on the show, you know? Right. that doesn't do anything for you. And, and to an extent, like, you know, Twitter was always my end goal was always working in, in comedy and working and getting paid to write jokes and Right. I've done that and, you know, so it's like, I doesn't really, you know, the more Twitter now is just more for fun or whatever, Uhhuh <affirmative>. But yeah. That's why, you know, when you ask how often you tweet, like back when I was really hungry for trying to get a late night job, I would be really, anytime I saw a news story, I would just try to get the funniest joke as early as I could.Michael Jamin:Right. You want Right. You wanna be first. Exactly. How do you, how do the, do you think the other writers mostly break in packets or unconventional ways?Jesse McLaren:I think all, all sorts of ways. I mean, everybody you know, it's like a, it's, I don't know who <inaudible> said this, but I, I I've heard, you know, someone describe a writer's room, especially in late night as like a superhero team where everyone has their own like superpower. You have some people who are just really good political writers and can be sat tired, really, if some people who are just really strong standups and can write like, you know, barbs and that kind of thing that are like, you know Right. Getting strong, like gross kind of jokes. And that's just, do youMichael Jamin:Feel your, what do you feel your specialty is?Jesse McLaren:I don't, I think, I think bits is what I always feel the most comfortable in. And, you know, that kind of thing of uhhuh doing something with video. And anything with's. Like, you know, if I see video, especially just having worked in TV for as long and that and that kind of thing, I just can know like, that footage of Biden doing this, we can add this toMichael Jamin:It. Right. So you think very greatJesse McLaren:Screen.Michael Jamin:You think very visually then what's the, what am I looking at? Not what am not, what am I listening to? What am I watching?Jesse McLaren:Right. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. And over the years I've, you know, gotten more into the joke writing itself and you know, I really love writing jokes, but I think the strongest area for me is definitely this kind of visual things. ForMichael Jamin:Sure. Now what's your takeaway when you write something and it bombs, they pick it and it bombs <laugh>.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. That's always, and that happens. It's, yeah, I don't know. I think that with our show, the good thing about it being fast paced is by the next day you don't remember.Michael Jamin:Right, right.Jesse McLaren:Just the way, like there's, I've never had something over the next day. I'm like, oh my God. You know? And I'm just like, okay, well that didn't go great. And then you, you just avoid doing whatever that did wrong. If you could figureMichael Jamin:Out, are you hugely embarrassed? To me, it's when I pitch something and it bombs to me, it's funny. I'm like, I just like, wow, guess I'm diluted. But I guess, but do you feel that way too? Or you just, oh my God, I'm I'm gonna be fired <laugh>?Jesse McLaren:No, I never think I'm gonna be fired. Cause in the end it's like, you know, like none of us knew if anything like the joke was picked, like we thought maybe it would work. So it's more, it feels like it's not just on you. Right. And nothing's ever like bombs to like, it's like people are like booing, you know?Michael Jamin:<Laugh>.Jesse McLaren:That's funny. You like when people boo. Cause that's at least, that's fun. But it's never just like dead silence. Especially in that kind of environment. But you do have things sometimes that just don't work great. For sure. Like, you just, and it's always just like, we just didn't have, you know, it's like, let's make a movie trailer for the new Guardians, the Galaxy, but we'll make it like, and it's just like, all right, that's not gonna look that great if we're gonna have it done in three hours. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Right, right.Jesse McLaren:I think we could do it and just doesn't quite work. It is like, should have worked, but, you know, maybe it just, if it needed another hour love or, but who'sMichael Jamin:Doing, I mean, are you, do you have a producer that you generally work with? Because that would be the producer's job is to put something like that together, right?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I mean, as a writer you oversee that kind of stuff with directors and producers. Oh, okay. And it's always like, you know, you know, if something wasn't ready for error, you wouldn't air it. Like, if there's no Right, you know, you do make those determinations, sometimes you will say, Hey, you know what, we have an hour left on this. It's not gonna make it like, it's not worth, let's make, let's say this for tomorrow. Or just didn't work.Michael Jamin:Do you have advice for, for people trying to, who would either wanna break in or try to become good joke writers or what, you know, what are your, what advice, wisdom can you share?Jesse McLaren:I, you know, for me it's like, you know, this, the advice I got you know, when I was at Colbert, someone, they read my packet and that was a really nice thing that they did for their staff members. Mm-Hmm. If you're like a PA and you submit a packet, they at least read it and give you some feedback. One thing they said is they, they told me is find a way to get feedback. Do stand up, find a way where you're actually reading these jokes yourself, Uhhuh <affirmative> yourself. And, you know, for me, I think that, you know and I'm sure like any standup comedian would roll their eyes at this, but for me, that was Twitter because that is the place where I figured out I got reception. If a joke was really bad, if it was really funny, I would at least get some kind of like, okay, this is, this kind of joke is funnier.You know? And I think just forcing yourself to get some feedback finding yourself, whether that's performing live or some way on the internet like I did. Finding a way that you have to actually be accountable for your jokes. And it's not just throwing them out into a void. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because, you know, I think that's why when I wrote packets when I was a lot younger, I thought there was the funniest thing in the world. How could they not hire me? And I read it now and I'm like, yeah, of course they didn't hire me. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Right.Jesse McLaren:This is really good,Michael Jamin:You know? Cause since you, you mentioned it, I I dunno if you heard of my, my first job, I worked with a guy named Marsh McCall, who was the head writer on Conan. I think that's season one. Have you heard of him?Jesse McLaren:Marsh? Michael Jamin:Well, he died a few years ago, but Oh,Jesse McLaren:Okay. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But he was the head writer. He was the head writer in Conan. He gave me some great advice for joke writing when I was on Just shoot me the first season. And he said, if everyone's going this way to get to the joke, go that way. You know what I'm saying? Like, don't try to, whatever path it looks like is the natural way to get the laugh, find somewhere else, because you're never gonna, everyone else is going that way. They'll be, they're gonna beat you. You gotta find your own path. Do you think that, do you think the same way?Jesse McLaren:No, I don't think that, I mean, I, I think that's good advice, but I think for someone as for someone like me, I wouldn't see that until after the fact. I would write jokes first and then when I edit it, you know, like, like I said, I think I've gotten better at editing. That's when I would maybe see that of like, I just know that this is a good joke.Michael Jamin:But, you know, well, let me see this though, because sometimes I, sometimes on social media, someone will say something and I'm like, oh, I got the perfect response. And then I'll scroll down the comments and I'll see, has anyone said this yet? Yeah. And if someone's already said it, I feel embarrassed for myself. At first I feel relieved that I didn't write it down and embarrassed that I, that I didn't do better than that. You know?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's why Well, that's why I'd always be after. Yeah. And after a while you start to like, just know that that's gonna be that thing. Like something happens, you know, you already know before you look in the replies, everyone's already made this joke for sure.Michael Jamin:Yes. Right. And so you gotta Yeah. If, if it's that easy, don't do it. Find <laugh>, but Yeah.Jesse McLaren:And, but sometimes it's like, it's just clearly it's that, it's that because it's the funniest joke and it's like, you know it's unavoidable almost sometimes. Right. You know, when, you know, I think about things like, things like, you know, the Rudy Giuliani landscape, four Seasons, landscaping things. Like, there was just some things that were like, you know everyone was making the same jokes, but you just kind of had to because it just kind of called for it.Michael Jamin:Right.Jesse McLaren:But yeah, for the most part, I think that I just try to, you know, I'll write eight jokes for something, six of which aren't even like, like, would be embarrassing if everyone even read it. It's just like trying to just get some kind of thought out. Right. And you have two and maybe one out of the two you're like, I think that's the strong point of view. That's something that no one else would've thought of orMichael Jamin:Right. So sometimes just you, you actually have to just write it down. Yeah. And move on to the next one and then edit yourself later just so that you can get to the joke. Right. Just so you can find it.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I'll do a lot of just vomit of like, like just write eight, just thoughts about this story. Right. Even if they're not, especially if they're not playing, just write anything you want. And then, you know, sometimes just that statement is the, is the joke or, you know, but yeah.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. Yeah. Jesse tell people, I wanna thank you so much for, for giving me all your time. I think I, this to me is so interesting. I, I'm fascinated by what you guys do. It's a world I know nothing about. So, but, but tell people how they can follow you or find you on, you know, social media if they wanna be. I think you're gonna get a bunch of new fans now.Jesse McLaren:Oh, well, yeah. I'm Nick, Jesse on Twitter. As long as we're still all on Twitter and yeah. And that's, you know, that's pretty much where I post most things. Do,Michael Jamin:Do you worry about that going? Yeah, as long as we're still on Twitter. I mean, do you worry about starting from scratch if we all decide to go to some other platform?Jesse McLaren:I did it first, but now at this point I'm just like, let's just do it. YouMichael Jamin:Think, why do you feel that way?Jesse McLaren:I don't know. Cause I think when we go to a new thing like Blue Sky, you start toing. Oh, the people I like find me and I find them, you know?Michael Jamin:But Are you on Blue Sky? Not yet. You I am,Jesse McLaren:I am on Blue Sky. You gotMichael Jamin:Preapproved because it's hard to get approved.Jesse McLaren:Yeah, I shamelessly tweeted I does anyone have a Blue Sky code? See exactly what it, I don't know what my name is on it, but I think it's just Mick, Jesse on that too, by <inaudible>. Does anyone have a Blue Sky Code? And one person messaged me and was like, I do. And then I, I got on that way.Michael Jamin:And they gave you their code?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I, I just don't know how the invite codes work on Blue Sky. And like, I had, like, it says under your name, like in by code, then it says zero. And then like, after like a couple weeks now it says I have one. And I'm like, oh, I have one now. Wow. Like, I'm giving that to my wife or like, you know, whoever wanted one,Michael Jamin:Whoever wants one. But you're not, you're not really on it yet, or are you?Jesse McLaren:I, yeah, some, yeah, a little bit. Yeah. But it's, it's pretty good. It's like the most closest. It's the closest to Twitter. I think I've, we've found.Michael Jamin:But you're not worried, I mean, you don't have nearly as many followers on Blue Sky as you do on Twitter,Jesse McLaren:Right? Yeah. But at the same time, it's like the Twitter followers. Like I have over a million followers and I feel like if you tweet something that's not funny, it still gets like 11 likes and that's it. You know, like it's kind ofMichael Jamin:Of what On, on, on Twitter you mean?Jesse McLaren:Yeah. I think that like really theMichael Jamin:People have disappeared.Jesse McLaren:Yeah. Or just that, that's just always the way it is. Like, it's like, I think it, the algorithm, the way it works just to like, it shows the tweet to like X amount of people, 10 people. If none of them engage with Right. People look at it or care, then it just doesn't show it to more people. Right. So I think, you know, I don't know. I think that, so it's just as long as you have a network of funny people and if that's what you wanna do comedy you have funny people that follow you and you follow them back. And then I think if you move to a new platform, you could still find a good audience to like, share funny things.Michael Jamin:Interesting. Right. Okay. Yeah. So again, you're making a case for getting out there, you know, making friends with people and, and getting close to the job you want. Yeah. Yeah.Jesse McLaren:Right. Yeah. And yeah, and, and working in TV really helped too. For sure. Yeah. Right. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Exactly. You started at the bottom. Good for you. I'm impressed, Jesse, you, you did it <laugh>. Yeah,Jesse McLaren:You did it well. Yeah, it was nice meeting you on the picket line and it was a pleasure. I recognize you from TikTok cause I think you come up in my algorithm all the time. Cause I'm always looking at any kind of screenwriting or comedy things. So you'll pop up and I say, oh, I know that.Michael Jamin:That's great man. I want to thank you again so much for taking your time. It was a great talk. I really appreciate this. All rightJesse McLaren:Everyone. Yeah. Thank you for having me on.Michael Jamin:Thank you. Big round of applause for Jesse. Go follow him on TikTok or Twitter to anywhere. We'll see wherever, wherever he goes next. <Laugh>. Wherever it is. All right, buddy. Thank you so much. Great talk everyone. Until next week, keep following me. I post check out my newsletter, Michael jamon.com/watch list from, have my best my content sent to you. All right. Until next week keep writing. Thanks.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar michaeljamin.com/webinar.If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes.For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminWriter.You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilAHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane. Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/screenwriters-need-to-hear-this/exclusive-content